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Vous No, 29]
‘EXTRACTS from, the “FIRST: REPORT’ of thé SELECT
‘, COMMITTEE of the HOUSE of:COMMONS, on the
STATE of IRELAND.“°. Te LE TSS
pee é Right DENNIS. BROWNE, ,
° ‘This Gentleman stated that the province of Connaught was
-- Ina state of perfect tranquillity ; at the same time there was
‘a sort of violent agitation of mind that he never saw equalled;
“that the finances were.in a flourishing state ; that the coun-
, try never. was so flourishing in any year.of.the war as when
o~-he left it six weeks ago; that the agitation was most dan-
‘gerous, and was among all classes of Roman Catholics in the
_y country, high, middling, and lower-;. that this agitation arose
» “from religious distinction and civil proscription ; and that the
“whole Population were joinet
tholic Association..."
ined “heart ‘and hand with the. Ca-
“those distinctions, which you state to he the cause of the pre-
ent state of Ireland ?—I know it would be doing the great-
Bea, st ‘good 5 but what I would put.with it would be a provision
- . for the Catholic Clergy, and without that’ provision, I con-
«Sider it would be like fitting out a ship well, withoutja helm to
s, guide it : . gag pe ? ae :
Do you think that the general disposition of the people is
‘such a character, that they would then become amenable
law, and live in/a state of tranquillity ?—1I do believe, that
they felt that they were equal to their neighbours; if they
-did not feel thetaselves as slaves: and helots in the country,
that if they saw they were noticed and known like others, I
é -do ‘believe’ that in time’all those sharp feellngs would wear
bol S, Jaway $s and Ido beligve, that if the clergy were paid, that
. the clergy would preach peace and quietness, and the clergy
would Become, instead of what they. are.now,.the: secret
"enemies of government, the friends of that government that
sto
if
ti Me ek be eae aim og pete EY Dap raat he
What is your opinion generally, of the characters of the
slower orders of the people; as to their disposition to obey the
-laws ?—They are apt to riot and fight at a fair, and I believe
: ‘they are like their neighbours in this respect ; they have. a
’ great deal of idle time upon their hands, and a great deal of
» spirituous liquors to drink, and the consequence of that’ is
“7
2: If a provision was nade for the clergy, have you any rea-
nto apprehend that they would lose their influence over
ir flocks ?—-No, J am sure they would not;: the consé-
ence would be that their flocks would not pay them.”:The
paymaster and the penitent, as they are now, are the same
Feo; the priest has the care of the conscience, and the
eniteht has the care of the purse, so that the religion
pare On Ne PNY n oust
+.obe made an auxiliary to mischief.” I do not think there can
-~be a more pernicious, dangerous, and inconsistent system ~~
*: Have any instances come to your knowledge in which the
Catholic clergy have taken any part in promoting discontent,
: vand exciting the people to resist the government ?—A great
» deals Ido believe there {3 not a parish in the county in which
~ s, Live, that the clergy ave not inducing, as far as ever they
‘can, the people to maiatain the present quiet, with a view to
future mischief. There was a priest lived near my house, of
: sthe name of, Ward ; heard that he preached from his altar
. in the presence of an officer who was a Roman Catholic, and
I sent it to governnient; and the sermon was this; he told
«them to be quiet, and not to go about knocking their heads
‘against the wall, and doing no good in the world, and doing
nothing but mischief; that nothing could be the consequence
. of that, but the discomfiture that they always had; that if
“they were quiet, and would follow their leaders and their
“guides, they would lead them to liberty; and we will lead
you, said he, to the recovery of those lands that were taken
“| from you formerly by soldiers and marauders. pet ag
« * Do you think that you could be secure of the loyalty and
_ -yattachment of the priests to the government of the country,
+,>merely by paying them ?—Upon my word I do; I do no
. think that any ciccumstance in the religion would make them
- otherwise ; and taking a little view of the character of the
.\ clergy, of all kingdoms and all times, J take somewhat of my
° opinion’ from that; but, however, I take it from another cir+
jeumstance, the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, they
re were marching side by side with the patriots against his Ma-
jesty’s troops; and some Little alarmi they got, in conse-
“quence of some of the conversation that happened there,
“made a temporary separation ; but my’ Lord Londonderry;
das. : in order to make the separation effectual, gave what is called
¢ «a regivm donum, to the Presbyterian clergy, and from that
* moment there never was disaffection among the Presbyteri-
. ans; and the clergy that were the greatest preachers of mis-
, chief, left off all that, and it all turned into harmony.
« ) Donot you think it would be an additional motive to secure
the loyalty of the priests, if the government retaiaed always
the ‘nomination to the highest dignities of the church ?—I
‘ ~ think it would be the best thing in the world ; but I think if
> * they had the key of the Treasury, that would do... fe
‘Do you think that alone, without having a veto upon all
‘appointments by the Pope, will be a sufficient security ?—I
think it will. Lele cd UL ate Mh
Did you ever turnin your mind the amount of payment
“. that you thought it would be proper to offer to the Catholic
‘ priests of Ireland 2—I have. [thought a parish priest ought
\to have from 701. to 100/. and the coadjutor from 354. to 502. ;
“+a Catholic Bishop perhaps 4002, 'and the four Archbishops,
_ - 1,000 each; that is-my rule, and with that I will engage
> you will have. such sermons of loyalty, such attachment
~ preached to the State, they would be so loyal, that their hair
. would stand on endif they heard what I heard in the House
t “ of Commons last night; they would die upon the spot. °°
2 * “Ig the number of the Catholic priests in Irelaad about the
* same as the number of clergymen ia the establisinent?—A
great deal move; where there are two Protestant clergymen
“there are six priests, because there is nota cabia ia the
country that does not call for the prigst;. the, Protestant
| clergymen have a few, and Lam happy to say that that fow
are increasiitg, but ;the Rotman, Catgolic’.ptiest- mast he
- ready night day.; he must-be ready to get up, at night,
‘THURSDAY EVENING, —
“What, in your opinion, would be the effect of “removing :
TRUTHS POWERFUL, AND WILL PREVAIL. : -
and he must be all day and night riding among the people of
the parish, for they are very:.superstitious, andvery’ easily
alarmed about’ themselves, and.if they have any sickness
they send for their priest. Ye ht Penh say
You think a payment to the. Catholic priests should be'a
part of Catholic Emancipation ?— i
for it without. os hata * 7 :
‘Would you pay the. Catholic: priests’ without: taking the
nomination of them into your own handy ?-—I would take the
payment of them into my own hands; niy Bill in Parliament
should be thus ;*that his Majesty should’ have the power: of
granting 100/. a-year, or any sum he
appointed to benefices at their request.
ANTHONY RICHARD BLAKE, ESQ.” ;
Chief Remembrancer of his: Majesty's Court of Exchequer in
y - ‘ land..<. A sbeekteg. od
“4 Sy :
You ate a Roman Cathoic?—-Liame (0 45 poe
Upon returning to Ireland did you observe any alteration
people ?-—I left Ireland at a time: of life in ‘which one is not
in the habit of considering very much: the state of the coun-
try—about the age of nineteen ; but. I was certainly at that
time old enough to have some general impression upon the
subject ;.I- think Ihave observed a cliange, and .a change
tonsiderably for the betters: j. Be PEN Dae ites
Have -you had opportunities :of asvertaining the present
condition of the lower orders of the people ?——-My duties, as
a Commissioner of Education, took me during the last au-
tunin into several counties of Ireland }.I observed then, with
satisfaction, that the lower orders of the people appeared
much more decently clad than when‘ left Ireland originally,
and I thought their general appearance.coasiderably improv-
ed; there is one subject on which, ‘of ‘course, I could give
some information to the. committee, the important subject of
education; but upon this I submit that jt' would not be pro-
per for me at.present to speak, inasmuch as it will be my.
duty, with my colleagues, to submit facts and opinions upon
it to the Crown, from whence our authority issues. «..
Had you any opportunity: of ascertaining to what extent
any feeling of discontent or. disturbance {prevailed amongst
them, in any. parts ?—S: could form an.opinioa from
the, outward: appearance. of-things, .{ stould conceive that
there was nof any disposition to disturbance. existing in the
autumn 1824; with respect to discontent, any opinion that I
may have upon that subject is formed mora upon infoxmation
than observation, so far as relates to that:particwar tour 5-1
chad ‘conversations with the-clerpyof ‘both denominations;
(Protestant and Romatt Catholic} wad wtih, the gontry of all
descriptions ;"1-have thus Iéarned' tha ‘state of the, public
mind through the! interior of Irelangy ant Ssserarry so 325
that discontent to @ very alarming degree. prevails amongst
the Roman Catholics, and that the thost ping,
ble dissensions extst,'and ‘are hourly 5
them. avd the Protestants..«0" ss pif ee
Is it not a matter of complaint, the tenets‘ that Catholics
are obliged to abjure in the oaths they fake ?—1 have heard
it complained of; but caudour obliges me to say, that there
is in history proof that. among some Romat Catholics, some
very obnoxious tenets were former); held 3 6uch Hs° the "de-
posing power ;-and, in my humble judgmgat, a Roman Ca-
tholic ought not to: feel offended, if he be calicd upon to dis-
claim doctrines or itions which strike at the civil inde-
pendence of the state, and which, though they never formed
any part of the Roman Catholic faith, were yet at one time
taveht by authorities in, the Roman Catholic church; but
these doctrines are now. universally exploded in these coun+
tries ; and I. should certainly wish to'see one simple oath of
allegiance established. for all the king's ‘subjects, Protestant
and Roman Catholic. «.:. ae tal Regs tet wots
Have you any means of forming a judgment, whether the,
Roman Catholic clergy would be pleased, if they were not
supposed to be surrendering the principles of the laity, to ac-
cept a provision. from the state —My opinion certainly is,
question, and. so segulated .as not to prejudice their inde-
pendence, they would receive a provision from the state’ with
gratitude ; that is the opinion which I have formed from con-
versations with them, particularly with the superior clergy ;
and my own opinion is, that it is a thing which, in the event
of a settlement of the Catholic question, would be most’ de-
Sirable. +0 22 gre pig shea d ie ga ete te
Do you think such a provision being thade for them would
be attended with any bencficial effect, in attaching the lower
class of people to the state and government of the countty ?—
I think it would: produce a good feeling amongst them ; it
would’ make them understaad that their church was not
looked upon with any hostile feeling, but the contrary ; I
think it would also be a very. great reliéf to them, because I,
believe, that the dues which are colletted-from thé lower
class of people by the Roman Catholic ‘slergy, are felt very
wily 5 lo not mean to censure the a Catholic
clergy for collecting these dues, they are their only means
of subsistence ; but I believe the payment of them is often
felt very severely by the lower orders.) (1... /)-4- Ve
jo you think that the settlement of what ou call the Ro-
man Catholic question, and the making a provision for the
Roman Catholic clergy, such as they would be willing to ac-
cept of, would or not, be calculated to give additional security’
to the Protestant establishnient ia Ireland 2—~I think that set-
tiement, upon wise and sound principles, wonld be abore all
others a measure calculated to give strength to the establisy-
ment, and repose to the country ;.I think the present state
of the law is obviously erroneous; it is caiculated not'to se-
cure, but to endanger the establishment, it creates bad feel-
ings, and afiorda no se¢urity against them.’ The Act of 1793
took things at the wrong end ; it elevated the lower orders,
and left the bigher ia a state of depression. The security of
the Protestants‘in Ireland “is in.the strength of property
agsinst nuasbers,; what you havo done 8 ta grant to the Ro-
man Catholic‘ a prictage in which auwber tells against pro-
perty, and to. withhold. ége tn wi tells
w privile:
against number ;“you. alow the:
&
E would not give asixpence |
pleases, to any persons } a:
¢ SOR MN. .
would attract all the hopes and
in the state generally of the cquntry aud the condition of the | Wi
tee fal ord omens
mcrcaayl me
that accompanied with the settlement of the Roman Catholic |.
73/1825.
sas 7) oo» [Pate 7d. on 83, Pew Q)
to vote,'and you do not allow the highet orders to sit.” I-cer-
tainly should consider, in the: settlement of the Catholic -
uestion, if ever itis to be settled, that the qualification for ~
the exercise of the elective franchise in counties, ought to be
reviewed and altered. tees bere ary aA
. Do you think that a rising of the qualification that should -
entitle the freeholder to vote, would be calculated to meet the
mischief-you have adverted to ?—I think it would in a very
great degree—though I am a Roman Catholic, I speak with
a sincere desire, that whenever: the Catholic question is set-.
tled, the tighfs of the established church should be secured ;
ad ik they would be secured in proportion as you i
creased the political power of property, converted public d
content into satisfaction, and engaged the Catholics in the sev.
vice of. the state, by adequate hogours and rewards. This:
desires of the Catholics to vat
he state, and would counteract any bias they-might, have - ‘
against the church, which is connected‘ with the state, iat
by an-indissoluble union, and must therefore stand or fall
theite. 26 6 : ‘ . te
- Do you think that such an arrangement would beinjurious .
to those fair interests which the Roman Catholics are entitled
to have in the country ?—My notion is, that the Roman’ Ca-.
tholics ought not to have an interest according to their nurb- «
ber, but according to their property ; under that impression,
I think that it would not injure any power or influence which
they ought fairly:'to have in the state; coupled, however,
with measures which would place them in what I conceive to
be the situation and estimation in which their property ought
to place them. » - + soe co”
& provision were made for the Roman Catholic clerzy
by the state, {is ft your opinion, that the influence of the
riesthood over their flocks would be thereby. materially
iminished ?—I do not think any wholesome influence that the
priest had over his flock, would be diminished. . ‘
Have the Catholic clergy. at present any other provision
than that which they derive from the voluntary paymeats of
their flocks ?~None. . 4 ran -
3? ae fee upon marriagg is one of their principal resources >"
ait is. pant by . wok
dt is usually that for which the hig’
understand so. * ‘ . eovu hee as tard
An your opinion, has that circumstance any influence in.
producing tarly and.improvident marriages ?—There one
must. speak again with reference to the naturcof man; if
the priest gains by carly marriages, thore.is nothiag mare.”
ikely to‘encourage them...°. 0. Mal Gg
; 4s "it not the opinion that such is the offectof, hare “
heatd the prtests assert the contrary. i, wide
: < Does your experience cuaule you to say, whether it has been
the usage forthe Catholic’ frecholders generally to vote at
clections. i
Formerly, 1 believe it axed ; latterly religigns {od "yetabPe
particularly through the activity of the clergy, who are stl-
mulated by the increasing eagerness of the laity for emanci-
paid?
I
e
1s it your opinion, then, that the influence ofreligion, and °° + +
the pricst, would be stronger than the influence of the Pro-
testant landlord?, Speaking from facts, t should say yes. . 0 >
have heard of acts of interference at the Dublin election, the _
Leitrim election, and the Sligo election, and other places. ; >
When you speak of raising the qualification of electors,
do. you, in, your idea, -limit_ it only, to freehold leases; or
would you say, that in a county the qualification of a man
having the fee of his forty-shilling freehold, should be raised
alsv?—I confine myself entirely to persons who derive under
leases ; if a man had the ownership of property, I should say -
he ought to be permitted to vote, because he rO-
prictor, the leaseholder is not; and I take that to be one of
the great distinctions between the forty-shilling freeholders
in England and in Ireland ; in England a forty-shilling frec-
holder in general has a property of his own to that extent;
in Ireland it is quite the contrary...) ... «., oe
; Do you believe that it is generally the case with respect to
the lower class of freeholders ?~I betieve quite the contrary.
Ta general they pay what is originally a rack-rent for the
land, then they build mud huts upon it, and if they make
out of the land a profit of forty shillings a-year, a Profit 10~
duced by the sweat of their brow, they reconcile themselves
to swear that they have an interest in it to the extent of
forty-shillings a-year, whereas the gain ‘is produced riot
through an interest in the land, but through their labour. »
_.Do.you think, generally speaking, that the forty-shilling :
freeholders - exercise any .free. choice at elections ?—My ~
opinion is, that they have none, > ~- *! . . - .
How do you think they are controlled ?—I believe they are ~
controlled by an absolute landlord, or by a sort. of inter-
ference. through religious feelings which I have already
mentioned... ee é t Tet
Can, you state to the committee the kind of control that is .
exercised over those forty-shilling freehoiders, so as to com-
mand their. votes?—I can speak only from hearsay; the
landlord .of course has the power of distress; the priest of
other partisan may act upon their religious feelings or pre- .
judices. . ee ee . .
; From your experience, are.you abie to say whether the
feeling of the great body of the lower orders of the people
is strong and keen tpon the subject of what is generally _
called the Catholic, Question ?~I’ believe it to be so: L do
not think I ever spoke to a Roman Catholic, high or low,
that did not betray something like irritation upon the sub-
oa
2
ete. ne
Can you state what effect the plan of raising the qualitt
cation would have apon the Protestant interest of the cona
try?I think the Protestants constitute, to a very coasi-_
derable extent, the landed proprietary interest of freland ¢, «
and therefore, in propartion as you increase the powes of
the proprietary interest; and diminish the power of mere 2.
numbers without property, you strengthen the Protestant © -*
Bel ako eo MS ve \ co .
interest. « . ie
say, thatthe © >
rest erderp ot mae people e
‘ommittee understand you rightly to
nm
of Roman Catholic, daisy! ation
acommon
we “ .
aceording to the wish of their rotestant landlord? ~