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* VOL. XXIV. . NEW
YORK, SATURDAY, AUGUST 4, 1
.[) (PINE DISCUSSION >
and others, had written on. the prophecies, but they all ditiered’ Babylon was the fall ot the y
‘from each other, and Mr. Faber, in his “ Difficulties of Roman- | the nations was fo
838.
ye Zan chy oi Keme, aud ite joy of +
r the conversion of it, or as Dr. Hammond
_ BETWEEN “THE -REV. MESSRS. ‘MAGUIR:
“) AND GREGG. wed
‘ » (Continued from our last.)
4
r .
» Rev. Mr. Maguire: Gentlemen, my opponent has told me,
ism,” again differs with the preceding commentators. He ad-'| writes, for the conversion of pure and Christian Rome. But I
mits, in the 12th page of his preface, thatthere is no warrant for | will ask Mr. Gregg if he does know of another city situated upon
fixing the Anti-Christ upon the Papists, as they never. denied | seven hills besides Rome? , Mark what Dr. Heyland says in
the father and son.’ ° Mr. Maguire read written extracts from | his Cosmography—Doctor Heyland, whom no one will doubt,
ih
P toes; and the midwives, having disobeyed his ‘orders, because
_ horns eleven feet long, would that be @ mortal sin, and as great a
, orl, for such alie asI have mentioned, be as bad as Claudius or
} that I did not answer a single point which he made during the
* « . . = tained by his rev. opponent. .
4, -discussion, All I suy is, you are the judges, and with you I, Tove lock having arrived, the discussion terminated for the
‘leave it. I think myself that it is as true as everything else | av. . ° at :
which he has said. The more I push him the more he avoids | Mr. Maguire stated, that as the charge of apostacy against
{ me. cannot bring him ‘to answer meat all. He has now = “ iy
ye
k
. imil Ul th vn . {the church of Rome had been but briefly entered upon, he would
ee arated oars anyene specific point. anes, Rane ‘allow Mr. Gregg to proceed with the same subject on the follow-
heard him talk of yenial sin, relies, miracles, and God knows i Sr "Greer said he was not sure whether he would do s0, as
Phat. He defies me ° frove that there is any tee ie tbe might be called toother subjects before he had concluded that
. . Se articular one. = ‘ &
oIet his knowledge of the Bible rest. I shall quote now from the P* . . im’ the whole d:
{ Bible, printed by authority, in the reign of James the'Ist.’ He | Ir. Maguire observed he would allow him the whole day,
4 maytell me that is not the authorised version; but I tell him |
} that it is bettér authorised than any which have succeeded it. |
.., “Lefer him to Exodus Ist chap. 16th verse—he will there find
4 -that the midwives having been ordered by Pharaoh to strangle
all the children of the Israelites who had become too numerous—
Ir. Gregg replied, that he would .in that case. proceed
with his further proofs of the apostacy of the Romish church.
‘FRIDAY—[Fourtu Day} he 8,
“The meeting was as fully attended as on the previous day,
( ust like ns poor Irish Papists—and who flourished the more, the | and the interest attaching to the discussion seems to continue un-
} more harshly they were treated, just as we flourish on our. pota- | diminished. A great number of clergymen of the, Roman Ca-
i tholic persuasion were present, but we observed very few. Pro-
-they feared God, were brought before him, when they gave as testant ministry in the room. ; . .
» their excuse—* the Hebrew women are’ not like the Egyptian; The chair having been taken at the usual hour, ©
‘|, women, for they are lively and @re delivered ere the Egyptian, _ Mr. Maguire , stood up and said—I ‘call upon the Rev. Mr.
‘\{ Women come in unto them ;” and it is added “therefore God | Gregg to sive us his proof of the Roman Catholic Church being
‘deait with thé midwives, and the people multiplied and waxed | the church of Anti-Christ, with all the etceteras.
* very mighty ; and it came to pass, because the midwives feared t. Gregg: It is not fair to callupon me to proceed now, for
‘t' God, that he made them houses.” Thus we have the mid- | we agreed not to alter the order of the meeting, and my oppo-
i wives telling a lie, and yet it is said that they feared God. and ‘nent is to commence to-day, and I call upon him to proceed
“God rewarded them. Now, if this lié were a mortal sin, God | with bis arguments.
(y would not have rewarded them. ‘ Besides it would have been | hour, but if, he gives me the additionalf half hour, I have no ob-
4 just as great acrime as if they had murdered the children, and j jection to commence: : , .
{, equally punishable with eternal damnation. My friend will also} . After disputing the point for several minutes, Mr. Maguire at
* recollect what St. Paul says of Rahab, who, when she conceal- | length consented that the discussion should go on in the ordinary
} ed the spies on the top of the house, told the soldiers when they | manner. _ He said I will have first to make an observation or
, artived that they had just gone out at the door. And St. James, | two upon Mr. Gregg's last speech yesterday. Ie first quoted a
» chap. 2, verse 25, says of her, And was not Rahab the harlot | text from St. John, to prove that every sin is mortal. ‘He read,
», Justified by works when she had received the messengers, and |‘ There is a sin unto death,” But, my friends, he omitted
; had sent them out another way.” Ifthat lie were mortal it was } what the Holy Evangelist continues to say, “ There is a sin not
: damnable, and not a whit worse than it would have been to give | unto death”—that is, there is a sin that killeth the soul, ina
{the spies up to death. Yet you see she was rewarded by God ! spiritual manner, and thereis a sin that killeth not the soul in a
for it. Therefore all sins are not mortal, and there are venial | spiritual manner. Now, either this proves vei sin, or, as I
: sins. I now refer him to Matthew, where it is said that “ who- | will prove to a demonstration, it shows the necessity for prayers
# soever is angry with his brother is worthy of the judgment, and | for the dead. He next spoke of the Book of the Maccabees,
«; Whosoever despiseth his brother is worthy of the council, and | which, he said, was rejected from the canonical Scriptures, be-
4; whosoever hateth his brother is worthy of hell’s fire.” Thus | cause it sanctioned selfmurder. Itsays that Maccabeus chose
+ showing that there are gradations of offences.. And does not | rather to die nobly than fall into the hands of bis enemies. -But
Christ say of hypocrites that they strain at a gnat and swallow a | the dying nobly had reference to what was passing ‘in .his own.
mind, and not to the opinion of the inspired writer.. Now, I take
si¢amel. Ors ‘© one was to say thathe saw.a cow With
the octavo edition of the Bible, published at Oxford, which
cannot be rejected, it being a great Protestant authority ; and on
the authority of this book I will show that a feast was establis
ed in honour of the self-sacriticial act of Maccabees, with an oc-
tave of eigth days. “It is said in John, that our Saviour and his
disciples went to the mountain to this feast—clearly proving that
the.commentator held the connection between the texts which I
haveshown. If, then, the Maccabees be not a canonical book,
why, was this feast established on its authority 7—and how will
it bo said that Jesus gave his countenance to a superstition? —T
ask Mr. Gregg what authority hé has for rejecting the book of
the Maccabees? : None, but his own private authority. Why
did he condemn the Rev. Mr. Burgh? Because he differed
from him on the meaning of the book of Daniel... Did the Ca-
tholic church ever condemn any person without a trial? No.
But any reverend friend, because he looks grave, and wears a
pair-of spectacles, I suppose, deals about condemnation with a
more unsparing hand than ever did the maligned Vatican. You
will observe that in one of the gospels it is expressly said of the
lessed Virgin, “ Behold, from henceforth, all nations shall call
‘Now how could he fall seven times if the ; first: sin se
v leprive s thee blessed.” . Jlow was this prophesy to be fulfilled? Where
‘him of God’s: grace? Mr. Maguire then proceeded to contend | were the nations to eall her holy. and to hold her name blessed,
_ hat his reverent friend, when he said he knew he had the spi- | when the whole Christian world was sunk in dark, and dismal,
‘ritof the Holy Ghost, was guilty of impiety; but the present and damnable heresy for 800 years? Now, my friends, I shall
£eneration of saints wished to be canonised before they were | proceed to show that the Babylof, spoke of in the Revelations; is,
dead. St. Paul himself only says he “ hoped” for a crown of } not the church of Rome, and that the city is not the Christian ci-
glory, and there is a great difference hetween presumption and j ty, nor the Papal city, but pagan Rome. * Saint Peter wrote to
tnodest hope. If his learned opponent possessed the Holy | the elect church, which is in Babylon. Now, he was presiding
Ghost, let him convert to. his opinions those who were present | over the Christian church which was in Rome at the time, and
t that meeting. After alluding again to the errors of the Uni- | he could only have spoken of it as in Babylon, because ainong
atians having arisen from the doctrine which has been preached | the heathens. , Indeed, Doctor Hammond.’a celebrated Protest-
Y the Protestants of the right of private jndement, Mr. Ma-} ant commentator takes this view of it. e tev. gentleman
ure said he pledged his literary character to demonstrate that | here read anextract from Hammond, in which he bolds that the
ations referred to heathen Ronie,
ailelujahs of the nations were the jov of the peuple
one for me as if I were to murder you on your way home, and
thus put an end to the discussion,“ I tell you God is just and
, ganerciful, and“he would not be either were he to punish all sins
_ alike. If God reward a man according to his works, how can you
Caligula, or Nero or Domitian. I refer him further, to Luke,
chap. 12, verses 47 and 48, we find this passage, * and that
» servant which knew his Lord’s will, and prepared not himself,
‘ neither, did according to his “will shall be beaten with many
‘ stripes; but he that knew not, and did not commit things worthy
‘of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” Thus the man
+ | who commits sin with the means of knowing the truth is to be
‘punished with many stripes, for it will be in hell; but the man
‘who has the sin of ignorance; he shall be punished in atempo-
tralway. tis the committing of sin with the full will that ut-
jterly condemns the soul, and therefore those who have not se-
ceded from us, but have lived without knowing our doctrines, we
a0 not despair may attain to salvation. Again the Scripture
‘says, ‘the just man falleth seven times and riseth again.”.
2 successor of Peter at Rome could not be the Anti-Christ, but vision of St. Joho in the Revel
hat Rome was,
and this, even in the opinion of several Protest- | and that the h
this work to show the discordance of his views with those enter- | as’ a learned and grave authority—[VThe reverend gentleman
here read an extract from his work, in which it was stated, ‘that
Constantinople was built upon’ seven hills, each of which was
rewned by a mosque. or sonre other public edifice ; and onthe
seventh of which was seated the temple of St. Sophia. Hence .
it was called the city on seven hills.] - Mr. Gregg will travel far,
hefore he will show that Constantinople was not the Babylon
foretold.’ “Ie was called Nova Rome, or New Rome, -anl has’ ue
quite as ‘cleara title to be called the Babylon, so that if there be
any mystery in’ the number seven, and if Babylon the Great
e situated on the seven hills, it is more likely, as Dr. Heyland,. -,
observes, that the Grand Turk, the protessed enemy of Christ, .
should be the Anti-Christ; and it would be more reasonable 10
look for him in’ the temple of St. Sophia, which is now a Tur-
Kish mosque, than'in St.’ Peter's at Rome, which is still a
Christian temple. + .I have already shown that Faber differs
i ewton, and declares that Joseph’ Meade and Bishop
; Newton are wrong in their application of the term Babylon the
Great. - To. proceed—idolatry was not. entirely rooted out until
the fifth century. - Well, according to St. John, the devil was to
be chained with all manner of chains for a thousand years after
the fall of Paganism,. °.This will bring ‘us, as I shall hereafter
show, tothe time of Lutherand Calvin, when hell was again let
loose upon the world. » [The reverend gentlemen then read ano-
ther extract fron, Dr. Hammond, who held that the meaning of
the passage in Revelatlons about the angel sent down to chain
Satan, meant that the¢mprisonment of the arch enemy should
idolators ?
there still ?
Dr. Cave, a Protestant writer, to show that he held that the
Babylon referred to in Revelations was pagan Rome. ow,
then, having given you these proofs in refutation of Mr. Gregg,
I will not at present proceed to show that Luther is the fallen :
star referred to by St. John. [Mr. Maguire next referred to ‘
Whitson, a writer in the reign of Queen Anne, who held that
the Pope was Anti-Christ, and prophesied and proclaimed that
| Popery would be done away ‘with in the year 1716. ,Now, to ,
| proceed to his quotations about forbidding to marry, and to eat
méat. be Protestant church acknowledges the general coun-
cil of Chalcedon. . It was admitted by the first parliament under
And was not the Pope thenin Rome, and is he not.
Queen B: - Now, one of the canons of that council declares < | o
that any priest or monk wha marries shall be publicly excom- *
municated.
You have your own church admitting that council,
which forbids to marry, ‘and marrying in contradiction to it—
We have. the authority of St. Paul for believing that the mar-
ried disciple is thore ready to fall away from the faith than he
who is single. ut I will proceed to show that the prophecy
did not refer to the Catholic church. The*Gnosties and other
early heretics, my reverend friend must know, totally’ forbid
marriage, saying it was brought in by the devil and the mar-
riage was fornication, © With these the Eneratites and ihe Mani-~
cheans forbid the use of flesh.-: Some of them held that swine’s
flesh only was: objectionable. ' But, many of the early heretics ~
declared that all flesh was an’ evil. (The reverend gentlemen
then quoted Tertullian, to show that the Marcionites regarded
marriage as evil.] But does the Catholic church do this 7 No. <
Jt has elevated marriage to a sacrament. Nor do we forbid the
use of meat. We use it, and I can tell yeu weare very glad ~
to getit. We only hold that during times of penance, the use of coos
all kinds of meat is not advisable, for which we night plead the +
line of Horace,’ Sive Cere et Bache fugit Venus.” We know’ .
that eating and drinking luxuriously foment the worst passions ;
and that a cessation from them is nécessary to penance.
®
Here Mr. Maguire's half hour expired. tg
Ir. Gregg said, he belonged to the true, holy Catholic church.”
ingland and Ireland, as it had always beer. ‘ Our church’ .
said he, ig the church of Ireland, as established by the ‘Apostles. .
I do ddnnt;* that St. Patrick came from Rome,’ and that he .
preached the gospel here; but he did so before Rome was fall- 1
en, and sunk in the grossest idolatry and superstiion. He came
trom Rome, when Rome was respectable, and not when she
was the mother of harlots, and of the abominations of the earth.
He came from her before she became the apostate harlot. But
what has she done since? She has, since her fali, wlich has
been plainly foretold inthe Revelations, sent us missionaries not
of peace and of truth, but of crime and dissension, which have
made us the mock and jest of all the nations of the wotld. The
reverend gentlemen referred to the downfall of Pagan Rome, .
and would have you believe, that Constantinople is the Babylon .
spoken of in the Revelations. He did that which 1 think was. .
not fair, and he must now suffer the awful consequences of it
| Ele read you a portion of the text, without reading the context;
2
gy
te
Bt writera, the
centre of Christian unity, Newton, Whittaker, | at seeing the Christian church overcome it.] Thus the fall of
Soe ~ | . . ’
. 5 bey
and, my iriends, when you hear it all read, you will see how
ee
continue for a thousand years afier the fall of Paganism. Was - :
Twit fi ludine halt, it not the Ronan Catholic church thatovercame the pagars and .
will not. sacrifice my concluding hal
he reverend gentleman then read an extract from *
“f
'